This serves effectively to rebut the objection of Julian Wolfe to the kalam cosmological argument 'Infinite Regress and the Cosmological Argument', International Journal for Philosophy of Religion II (1971), 246-9. According to the Christian doctrine of creatio ex nihilo, the universe began to exist a finite amount of time ago. On one hand, God may exist in eternity. As Swinburne explains, ...since God coexists with the world and in the world there is change, surely there is a case for saying that God continues to exist for an endless time, rather than that he is timeless. Scripture: Psalms 103:15-18. ..if such a thing as a Christian doctrine of time has to be developed, the work of discussing it and developing it must belong not to biblical but to philosophical theology'. The crucial premise is, in Wolfe's opinion, that an infinite time cannot elapse. p. 36. He was identifying shapes when he decided to talk to God. After viewing product detail pages, look here to find an easy way to navigate back to pages you are interested in. But, he adds, without physical objects, time could not be measured: one could not distinguish an hour from a day in a period of time without objects. If God sustains any relations to the world, does not this imply that he exists in time? [30], Thus, on a relational view of time God would exist timelessly and independently 'prior' to creation; at creation, which he has willed from eternity to appear temporally, time begins, and God subjects himself to time by being related to changing things. Yet it is obvious that certain statements, such as, 'The stars were moving', is a meaningful, though in this case false, statement that could be made about the state of the universe prior to the first event. Denomination: *other. Ian Hinckfuss, The Existence of Space and Time (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1975), pp. Time and Eternity is not an easy read; it is best approached with a strong background in philosophy, logic, and theology. Aquinas and the medieval scholastic did believe God was simple and immutable but had metaphysics related to eternalism of foreknowledge which Craig misses. If God is really related to the world, then it seems most reasonable to maintain that God is in time subsequent to creation. [31]. God simply transcends time; He doesn't exist in time. Get Dr. Craig's newsletter and keep up with RF news and events. It knows linear time only…' [2] He maintains, 'Primitive Christianity knows nothing of a timeless God. God, Time, and Eternity: The Coherence of Theism II: Eternity William Lane Craig (auth.) Swinburne argues that time, like space, is of logical necessity unbounded. (London: Thames & Hudson, 1972), pp. Enter your mobile number or email address below and we'll send you a link to download the free Kindle App. Although space would not exist without physical objects, time would. It is a must-read for anyone seriously interested in the problem of time and eternity in Christian philosophy.--Robert RussellProfessor of Theology and ScienceGraduate Theological Union, Berkeley, Calif. ', Australasian Journal of Philosophy XXXIII (1955), 33. It is magnificently designed for life on earth, right now, with all its pressures and problems, its joys and tears. These, then, are the alternatives. Download for offline reading, highlight, bookmark or take notes while you read God, Time, and Eternity: The Coherence of Theism II: Eternity. As a result, God's eternity, says Cullmann, must be expressed in terms of endless time. Reviewed in the United States on February 22, 2012. Top subscription boxes – right to your door, I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist, A Biblical-Theological Introduction to the Old Testament, © 1996-2020, Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates. Since time is unbounded, it is of logical necessity infinite. Second Peter 3:8 says, "…with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." But, in fact, it does seem plausible to contend on a relational view of time that a first instant could exist, since apart from events no time exists. Theists say that God is eternally existent. In this interesting book, Professor Craig tackles this complex set of topics in a clear way. xii, 72. Eternity is time with an adjective: It is endless time. On a relational view of time, God would exist changelessly and timelessly prior to the first event, creation, which marks the beginning of time. Why did God so determine? Those who try to think about God and time are pressing the very limits of human understanding. Yes, young man, and what then? Zwart, for example, asserts, According to the relational theory the passage of time consists in the happening of events. Is God's eternity to be construed as timeless or temporal? On the other hand, if one accepts that time cannot exist apart from events, then a beginning of events would entail a beginning of time as well. But, of course, prior to creation was not simply nothing, but God. Lucas argues that a personal God could not be timeless and that if God is eternal, then time must be infinite as well. Hackett, Theism, pp. Something went wrong. Please try your request again later. That the Universe, if real, must be finite in Both Space and Time', Philosophy, XLVI (1971),121-32. There does not appear to be, therefore, any absurdity in the notion of a beginning of time. A relational view of time seems superior to a Newtonian view because (1) it is difficult to see how time could exist apart from events and (2) the Newtonian objection that every instant of time implies a prior instant is adequately answered by the relational view. The idea of a 'time before time' is a mental construction only, a product of the imagination. The problem becomes especially acute for anyone who holds to the Christian doctrine of the incarnation, for as Nelson Pike urges, 'It could hardly escape notice that the doctrine of God's timelessness does not square well with the standard Christian belief that God once assumed finite, human form (the doctrine of the incarnation).' HUMAN TEMPORALITY AND DIVINE ETERNITY. hose who think about time are thinking deeply. In this book, he combines his expertise in these areas to produce an original, erudite, and accessible theory of time and God that will be of great interest to both the general public and scholars. But if God sustains real relations with the world, the co-existence Unable to add item to List. The God of Western religion is said to be eternal. Once temporal persons were created, God would then begin to experience temporal personal relationships with them. We have already seen that authentic Christianity is far more than a "pie in the sky, by and by" religion. You're listening to a sample of the Audible audio edition. J. R. Lucas also contends that time could neither begin nor end. The former would appear to involve God in time, but the latter would not, for if God is tri-personal he has no need of temporal persons with whom to relate in order to enjoy personal relationships--the three persons of the Godhead would experience perfect and eternal communion and love with no necessity to create other persons. Brian Ellis, 'Has the universe a beginning in time? ISBN. To a scientist, time is a relatively simple matter, but when one gets into the Bible time has qualitative and subjective aspects---there is much more to consider. But what does that mean? Eternity. [9] If we agree that the universe began to exist, does this necessitate as well a beginning to time itself? Craig has done a great work, and it is marvelous that now the philosophy of religion is engaging with the philosophy of science to the great benefit of both.--John R. LucasFellow of Merton College, Oxford University, Time and Eternity offers a comprehensive discussion of the problems in the concepts of time and eternity on the basis of an extraordinary familiarity with a vast number of recent contributions to this issue from scientists and philosophers. Are there, then, good philosophical arguments for preferring one of these competing notions of God's eternity to the other? . In Time and Eternity, William Lane Craig defends the remarkable conclusion that "God is timeless without creation and temporal since creation." Samuel Rosenblatt (New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, 1948); Bonaventure, 2 Sentences 1.1.1.2.1-6. 121-9). Traditionally, the Christian church has taken it to mean 'timeless'. In order to navigate out of this carousel please use your heading shortcut key to navigate to the next or previous heading. Please try again. There are a few modern authors who hold to the independent status of time apart from events, and they are thus the heirs of the Newtonian conception of absolute time. The Lord Jesus Christ continually lived in time for our sakes, and in eternity by His very nature. The question before us concerns the relationship of God to time. Facebook; The argument is subtle and precise. [11] Therefore, Newton's claims about Absolute Time were correct. There was an error retrieving your Wish Lists. ISBN-10: 1402000111. He doesn't exist now, but He exists simply timelessly. Paint a painting and Time will fade it. God is simply timeless before the first event. Following creation, God is in time. This understanding does not involve any change in God; rather he is simply related to changing things. It might be asserted that even on the relational view of time there can be time prior to the first event because one may abstract from individual events to consider the whole universe as a sort of event which occurs at its creation. Though we can, after creation, think of nothingness one hour before the first event, in terms of reality, there was no such moment. When the first event occurred, the first moment of time began. The primary question of the book is: Can God rightfully be considered timeless or temporal? Some philosophers have argued that time cannot have a beginning because every instant of time implies a prior instant. Eternity is not, as in Platonic and Neoplatonic thought, supratemporal or nontemporal. Then, sir, I hope to have a place in Parliament, in the House of Lords. But if the universe does come to exist ex nihilo, how could we say this first event has an effect on reality (but of course there was no reality!) The physical universe itself may have had a beginning – but this can only be true if there is a period of time before the beginning during which the universe did not exist. [17] This would seem to imply that if the universe had an absolute beginning ex nihilo, then time would also have a beginning; but that if the universe had only a relative beginning from a prior quiescent state, then time would not have a beginning. For cheaper go get the City of God by Augstine or translated copies of parts of Dun Scotus or Anlsem's complete writings or the Pensees. [26] On a Newtonian view of time, God would exist changelessly in an undifferentiated time prior to creation. Those who try to think about God and time are pressing the very limits of human understanding. Whitrow remarks in this connection that many people have difficulty imagining a beginning to time because they think of it as a boundary similar to a boundary of space. I think that it is within the context of Trinitarian theology that the personhood and timelessness of God may be the most satisfactorily understood. God’s eternity does not go by with the time of the created world. Your recently viewed items and featured recommendations, Select the department you want to search in. God sees all of eternity’s past and eternity’s future. As part of God’s creation, we are subject to time. Davidson, Proofs of Eternity, Creation and the Existence of God in Medieval Islamic and Jewish Philosophy (1987), chps. I think that there are. Thus, the proper understanding of God, time, and eternity would be that God exists changelessly and timelessly prior to creation and in time after creation. To calculate the overall star rating and percentage breakdown by star, we don’t use a simple average. [23] We reject the latter because we could presumably cross the boundary and find space on the other side. Stuart Hackett argues, Time is merely a relation among objects that are apprehended in an order of succession or that objectively exist in such an order: time is a form of perceptual experience and of objective processes in the external (to the mind) world. Sturch argues that in order to avoid an infinite temporal regress of states of consciousness, God's knowledge must be timeless. The "eternal" God is he who was in the beginning, is now, and will be in all the future, "who is, who was, and who will be" (Rev. Those who think about God T are thinking even more deeply still. I gave this book only 3 stars not because I think that’s all it’s worthy of, but because many of the parts that didn’t skirt my understanding exceeded it. His discussion of the interrelated scientific, philosophical, and theological issues clears up many previous misconceptions and proposes a plausible understanding of the relation of God to time and eternity that many will find helpful.--George EllisProfessor of Mathematics and Applied MathematicsUniversity of Capetown. There would thus be a before and an after with regard to this event: no universe/ universe. The first moment of time is not a self-contradictory concept. Just as He is omnipresent, He is also omnitemporal. The practical applications of the doctrine constitute the most striking part of Charnock’s exposition, and three in particular stand out. [27] Soren Kierkegaard called this the Absolute Paradox; this is the contradiction of existence: the presence of the Eternal in time, how God can enter the space-time world without ceasing to be the Eternal. For prior to the universe's beginning, if there was nothing at all, not even space, then it would certainly seem to be true that there was no time either. He argues that Cullmann's study is based too heavily upon etymology and vocabulary studies, and these cannot be determinative in deciding the meaning of a term apart from use. I would recommend it to others. Great proponents of this view have been people like St. Augustine, Boethius, Anselm, and Thomas Aquinas. For there was just nothing, and Creation was only a future contingent. Because the argument concerns events, not time, Wolfe's analysis is inapplicable, since prior to creation there were no events at all. To say there is no time before the first event is like saying there is no temperature -273 C. Both express limits beyond which only the mind can travel. 13.7. Time and Eternity: Exploring God's Relationship to Time. But in the first place, Wolfe's formulation of the argument is defective, for the contention is that an infinite number of events cannot elapse, not that an infinite time cannot elapse. William Lane Craig (PhD, University of Birmingham, England; DTheol, University of Munich) is research professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology in La Mirada, California, and at Houston Baptist University in Houston, Texas. God is the 'high and lofty One who inhabits eternity', declared the prophet Isaiah, but exactly how we are to understand the notion of eternity is not clear. [24] But Hackett argues convincingly that a personal God need not experience a temporal succession of mental states. [28]. So the question whether time is finite or infinite may be reduced to the question whether the series of events is finite or infinite. There was a problem loading your book clubs. Ibid. . The nature of time is a continuing source of puzzlement both to science and in everyday life. Check out these titles from Crossway that cover a wide range of topics. [13]. Please try again. Craig. For suppose the universe never came to exist - would there still be time? [16] Accordingly, he regards time and space as inextricably bound up together in spacetime. If time coexists with events, then an origin of time merely implies a beginning of the universe. Taking sharp issue with Cullmann's study, James Barr has shown that the biblical data are not determinative. Lawrence Sklar, Space, Time, and Spacetime (Berkley and Los Angeles: University of California Press, 1974), p. 274. I am unable to make my way back to eternity, but God can reach into time from eternity, touch me and draw me back. John Donnelly (New York: Fordham University Press, 1972), pp. Historically, this argument has been defended by Al-Kindi, Al-Kindi's Metaphysics: A Translation of ¡a' qub ibn Ishaq al-Kindi's Treatise ' on first Philosophy', with an Introduction and Commentary by Alfred L. Ivry (Albany, N.Y.: State University of New York Press, 1974); Al-Ghazali, Tahafut al-Falasifah (Incoherence of the Philosophers), trans. [20] On the other hand, this level of abstraction may be illegitimate and may presuppose a time above time. Since the first event did not occur, then an infinite time must have elapsed. . He could apprehend the whole content of the temporal series in a single eternal intuition, just as I analogously apprehend all the parts of a circle in a single sensory intuition. He argues that this is incorrect because prior to causing the first effect, the uncaused cause existed for infinite time. ADD. [25] Therefore, the fact that the creator is personal does not necessitate the presence of time prior to creation. This doctrine receives philosophical confirmation from arguments demonstrating the absurdity of an infinite temporal regress of events [8] and empirical confirmation from the evidence for the so-called 'big-bang' model of the universe. 286-7. Research Professor of Philosophy, Talbot School of Theology; Founder, Reasonable Faith, www.reasonablefaith.org. Therefore, the issue lies in the lap of the philosopher, not the theologian. I am certain that Time and Eternity will also stimulate your thinking about this fascinating subject and your appreciation for the God who created time as part of the marvelous universe He has given us.--Don N. PageProfessor of Physics and Fellow of the Cosmology and Gravitation Program of the Canadian Institute for Advanced ResearchUniversity of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, William Lane Craig is one the leading philosophers of religion and one of the leading philosophers of time. Thomas Aquinas attempted to solve this problem by arguing that while creatures are really related to God, God sustains no real relation to creatures. [14] He notes that if time is defined in a relational manner, then if there was an absolutely stationary universe prior to the first event, we would have to say that time did not exist until the first event occurred. God designed us to live in Eternity. Modern defenders of the argument include Stuart C. Hackett, The Resurrection of Theism (Chicago: Moody Press, 1957); G. J. Whitrow, The Natural Philosophy of Time ( London and Edinburgh: Thomas Nelson and Sons, 1961); Pamela M. Huby, 'Kant or Cantor? [3] As a result, God's eternity, says Cullmann, must be expressed in terms of endless time. I found this book very informative and interesting to read. Eternity is an existence that exceeds time. Thus, on a Newtonian view of time, the universe arises in an absolute, undifferentiated time, while on a relational view of time, it comes into existence with time. Prime members enjoy FREE Delivery and exclusive access to music, movies, TV shows, original audio series, and Kindle books. Many of Craig's arguments (and his refutation of others') can be occasionally abstruse, and require careful study. The Bible … As the latest in his series of ground-breaking books, Time and Eternity summarizes and extends Craig's previous technical arguments and conveys them to a more general audience. Time and Eternity was one of his first books about the philosophy of religion and mysticism, after writing throughout most of the 1930s and 1940s that was influenced by phenomenalist philosophy. Why is ISBN important? 57:15). Send article to Kindle To send this article to your Kindle, first ensure no-reply@cambridge.org is added to your Approved Personal Document E-mail List under your Personal Document Settings on the Manage Your Content and Devices page of your Amazon account. The extent of my philosophy background includes courses in introductory philosophy and logic in undergraduate school many years ago, two analytics courses in graduate school, supplemented by infrequent reading in the genre of philosophy and physics over several decades. IV. Thus the answer to the question, 'What was God doing prior to creation?' It is in this sense that He could speak of Himself while on earth as "the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13). But if God sustains real relations with the world, the co-existence of God and the world imply that God is temporal subsequent to the moment of creation. But this doctrine is singularly unconvincing. 210-11; Peter Geach, (God's Relation to the World', Sophia VII 1969), 1-9. On the other hand, the Newtonian would say God exists in absolute time changelessly and independently prior to creation and that creation simply marks the first event in time. Sabid Ahmad Kamali (Lahore: Pakistan Philosophical Congress, 1958); Saadia Gaon, The Book of Beliefs and Opinions, trans. For in the eternal and changeless love relationship between the persons of the Trinity, we see how a truly personal God could exist timelessly, entirely sufficient within himself. It also analyzes reviews to verify trustworthiness. He has carefully given arguments defending several different viewpoints for each of the many issues about time that he discusses, followed by critiques in which he emphasizes his own opinion. P. J. Zwart, About Time (Amsterdam and Oxford: North Holland Publishing Co., 1976), p. 237. Isaiah proclaims God as "the high and lofty One who inhabits eternity" (Isa. . Eternity is the full expression of what we have created in time. BIBLIOGRAPHY: H.A. I was hoping since this got good reviews and Craig is talked about highly at least in popular crowds and is not as bad as Richard Dawkins this would be good but not great. We might want to say that time does not exist until an event occurs, but when the event does occur, there is a sort of retroactive effect causing past time to spring into being. [5] Barr's basic contention is that, 'A valid biblical theology can be built only upon the statements of the Bible, and not on the words of the Bible.' Since prior to and after every period of time there is more time and since the same instant of time never recurs, time must have gone on and will go on forever. God's existence "prior to" or sans creation would not entail the existence of time if God in such a state is changeless. [21]. Is God somehow beyond time, living a life that does not involve one thing after another? Yes, said the great statesman, and what then? That this model requires creatio ex nihilo is explained by Fred Hoyle, Astronomy and Cosmology (San Francisco: W. H. Freeman & Co., 1975), p. 658. The answer is: it all depends. Nelson Pike, God and Timelessness [London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1970], pp. Reviewed in the United States on June 4, 2011. Craig has done a great work, and it is marvelous that now the philosophy of religion is engaging with the philosophy of science to the great benefit of both. Soren Kierkegaard, Philosophical Fragments, trans. Thus, there could be no first instant of time. “It does not coincide with the present.” It does not precede it or “prolong” it into infinity. Then you can start reading Kindle books on your smartphone, tablet, or computer - no Kindle device required. Stephen J. Wellum; John S. Feinberg, general editor, Edited by J. P. Moreland, Stephen C. Meyer, Christopher Shaw, Ann K. Gauger, and Wayne Grudem, Edited by Guy Prentiss Waters, J. Nicholas Reid, and John R. Muether, Crossway; Illustrated edition (March 1, 2001), Reviewed in the United States on October 12, 2018. A young man came to W. E. Gladstone when he was Prime Minister of England and said, Mr. Gladstone, I would appreciate your giving me a few minutes in which I might lay before you my plans for the future. Those not interested in analytical, theological arguments should look elsewhere. Instead, our system considers things like how recent a review is and if the reviewer bought the item on Amazon. . Time And Eternity: Cast Away Series Contributed by J John on Dec 20, 2007 (message contributor) based on 14 ratings (rate this sermon) | 8,944 views. Also languages being temporal is not a very good argument without looking into semantics of lanuage and other things pretty extensively which he does not do. Please try again. In religions where eternity is radically contrasted with time, time is seen as an illusion, or utterly subjective, or an ephemeral episode. Given the superiority of a relational over a non-relational (Newtonian) view of time, God ought to be considered as timeless sans creation and temporal subsequent to creation. We were created for eternity, yet, we fell from eternity, and became bound in time. We have the priesthood, which is the authority from God to perform His work on earth. I say this to explain that because of my own ignorance and with many terms in this book only vaguely familiar, I had to brush up on the nomenclature and work my way slowly through the arguments. This remarkable work offers an analytical exploration of the nature of divine eternity and God's relationship to time. The book offers a plausible argument for a realistic conception of temporal process and for God's involvement in the temporal distinctions and processes because of His presence in His creation.--Wolfhart PannenbergProfessor of Systematic TheologyLudwig Maximilliens Universitaet-Muenchen, Germany, As a scientist doing theoretical research in gravitational physics and quantum cosmology, I found Dr. Craig's thoughtful book highly interesting. 146-7. But in his classic work on this subject, Oscar Cullmann has contended that the New Testament 'does not make a philosophical, qualitative distinction between time and eternity. Clean Christian jokes, funny jokes, free jokes, and clean jokes and humor about God, faith, eternity, heaven, justice, and more. [22] But Ellis draws a very instructive analogy between this sort of speech and talk of temperatures below absolute zero. Bring your club to Amazon Book Clubs, start a new book club and invite your friends to join, or find a club that’s right for you for free. On the other hand, those who adhere to a relational view of time generally take the beginning of events to be synonymous with the beginning of time itself. Enjoy a wide variety of funny Christian jokes, good clean jokes, and family safe jokes and religious humor. David Swenson (Princeton, N. J.: Princeton University Press, 1936), pp. For a thorough discussion, see my The Kalam Cosmological Argument (London: Macmillan, 1979). God, Time, and Eternity: The Coherence of Theism II: Eternity - Ebook written by W.L. [19]. On the big-bang model see P. J. E. Peebles, Physical Cosmology (Princeton, N. J.: Princeton University Press, 1971); S. Weinberg, Gravitation and Cosmology (New York, Wiley, 1972). Therefore, we need to ask whether there is any absurdity in supposing that time had a beginning. Historical Contingency and Christian Belief, 7909|4009|4016|4023|4029|4035|4041|4046|4051|4056|4060|4064|4068|4071|4073|4075|4077|. Whether this is a good definition of eternity, "The simultaneously-whole and perfect possession of … Time and Eternity deals with difficult issues in modern physics and brings them into relation with traditional theological doctrines. It seems, then, that time is something good and well-suited for God’s creation. It is system-dependent upon regarding relation as an accident inhering in a substance. When we say things like "God is timeless" or "God has no beginning or end," we are trying to explain God in terms of a dimension by which He is not constrained. Time and Eternity deals with difficult issues in modern physics and brings them into relation with traditional theological doctrines. Since there was no past tense statements could be made, since was... Barr has shown that the universe never came into … IV Western religion is said to construed! Imply that he exists simply timelessly seems most Reasonable to maintain that God exists outside the concept. Physical objects, time, and family safe jokes and religious humor order. Theology ; founder, Reasonable Faith, www.reasonablefaith.org out these titles from Crossway that cover wide. Passage of time be illegitimate and may presuppose a time above time sample of the universe product of the time. Interprets Minkowski spacetime in a clear way merely implies a prior instant there still be time puzzlement both science... Is absolutely simple, he created time—there was a “ beginning ” ( Genesis )! Author, and in everyday life instructive analogy between this sort of speech and talk of below! `` pie in the lap of the nature of God s timeless.. God 's eternity to be construed as timeless or temporal not spread out time. Experience a temporal succession of mental states defends the remarkable conclusion that God.: Macmillan, 1979 ) to music, movies, TV shows original. 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Is a continuing source of puzzlement both to science and in eternity by his very nature Bible … the whether! Suppose the universe ex nihilo ', church Quarterly review CLXVI ( 1965 ), pp 'time before '. Like that of his relation to time itself right version or edition of a book or address., then time must be expressed in terms of endless time conclusion: prior to.... A mental construction only, a web-based apologetics ministry has been understood in terms of endless time claims Absolute. Of space and time ( London: SCM Press, 1972 ), 1-9 and eternity is used Kalam Argument... Shapes when he decided to talk to God temporal persons were created, God 's has! Creator is personal does not this imply that he is also omnitemporal regard to this:... Up with RF news and events uncaused cause existed for infinite time interested in free Delivery and access... Read, though one that will most likely take time events is finite or infinite be... Mobile number or email address below and we 'll send you a link to the... Good ” ( Genesis 1:31 ) Metaphysics in Hasdai Crescas ( 1998 ) pp!, iOS devices result, God 's relationship to time is something good and well-suited for God ’ s and... Has no accidents and, Hence, God may be the most satisfactorily understood '' religion he that! Time merely implies a beginning to time, p.80 to this event no! While creatures in time out these titles from Crossway that cover a wide range of topics,! Is simply related to changing things there, then an infinite time relativity theory states on 22. Their relations to him general that which remains the same while other things change is not an easy way navigate... He has authored or edited over thirty books and is the founder of ReasonableFaith.org, a web-based apologetics ministry never. Out of this carousel please use your heading shortcut key to navigate god, time and eternity to pages you are in..., Philosophy, XLVI ( 1971 ),121-32 's relationship to time is a continuing source puzzlement... Before-And-After extended to all events ' ( ibid appear to be preferred funny Christian jokes good...